Why Your Gorgeous Design Work Might Still Be Losing Clients

This transcript was generated automatically and lightly edited, so it may contain small errors.

Podcast Intro & Welcome

When it comes to growing your business? Then welcome to the Wingnut Social Podcast, helping home professionals and luxury brands accelerate their success with proven marketing strategies and expert industry practices. Now here’s your host, Darla Powell. Hey kids,

Host & Guest Announcement (Darla & Nicole)

And welcome to the Interior Design Business Podcast designed by Wingnut Social. I am your host, interior designer Darla Jethro Powell, and today we are joined by my very good friend Nicole Heymer of Glory and Brand. Nicole Heymer has designed the Wingnut Social website. We just did a refresh. You can check that out at wingnutsocial.com, and she is an amazing friend.

We’ve done speaking together at High Point and all kinds of stuff just together, just talking about interior design business, and I love my conversation with her. Not only is she a good friend, but she’s brilliant at what she does, designing websites that not just look gorgeous, but also do what they’re supposed to do, which is to help get you business for your interior design firm, right? And she’s hilarious. So she and I may have had a little too much fun, but there’s a lot of serious business takeaways here.

All right, guys, before we get into

Guest Bio: Nicole Heymer / Glory and Brand

Is the founder of Glory and Brand, a boutique marketing agency specializing in branding, websites, automation, and SEO for interior design firms, builders, and architects. Since 2011, Nicole’s clear, practical take on branding and digital marketing has been featured by a range of design industry resources, from Business of Home to the Luxury Home Design Summit. You’ll find her methods in print, on podcasts, like this one and at branding workshops. Wingnuts, help me in welcoming Nicole Heymer to the show. Hey there, Nicole Heymer.

Conversation Kickoff & Banter

Welcome back to the show. How the hell are you? Hey, Darla. It’s so nice to see you. It is so good to see you again, my friend. It has been way too long. Agreed. I was just saying you’re nodding your head. This is audio. For those who are listening, I am nodding my head. If you’re watching our show on YouTube designed by Wingnut Social, you can see Nicole Heymer was nodding her head to that question.

And I just want to make sure, Nicole, I know we’re good friends, we go back a ways, but am I pronouncing your name correctly? Because in the show intake on your phonetic pronunciation, I believe you said your name was pronounced Bad Bitch. Is that correct? That’s correct, darling. So for the purposes of this podcast, do you want to go by that or would you prefer Nicole Heymer? You can call me Nicole. Okay, okay, good to know.

Thank you so much for asking. Okay, you’re very welcome. For the uninitiated, if you’re under a rock, Nicole Heymer is the founder of Glorian which is a divine website creation agency for interior designers and the ilk, the milieu, the genre. And you just recently did a website refresh for Wingnut Social, and I have to say it is gorgeous. Simply gorgeous. So happy to hear you say that. Yeah, my team is just like, oh my God, it’s so good. I’m so good.

And if you want to see that, you can head on over to wingnutsocial.com. It is really lovely. And today, Nicole, we are talking about something in the industry that a lot of interior designers struggle with and Interior designers are growing their business and they want to attract higher-end clients and they want to become successful interior designers and be in a certain niche, right? Elevate their game.

But a lot of times the website is a second thought. They’re not elevating the actual website, the landing page where they get their clients to book those consultations with them high-end, or don’t even realize what does that even mean to make their websites high-end to attract those luxury high-end clients. So you’re gonna tell us what that looks like, what they need to do, and answer all of those tricky questions. Are you game? I’m game. Yeah, let’s make their outsides, proverbial outsides, match their insides.

Like the level of service that they’re providing should align with what people are seeing as those initial touchpoints. Yeah, absolutely. And in the past,

Why Traffic and Website Must Align

We’ve had Wingnut Social clients who have come to us maybe whether it’s on the consultation or newer clients who have said, and their design work is gorgeous, right? I want to attract those 1% clients, those high-end clients.

And then when we’ve gone over and taken a gander at their website, we recommend, hey, maybe you need to go over to Nicole Heymer, Glorian Brand, or you need to elevate your website because while we’re doing the job of sending X amount of clients from your social media marketing to the website, I think there’s a disconnect and they’re losing it there. So I think that’s so important. It’s synergistic, right?

With your marketing, you don’t want to invest in your social media marketing or in doing Google Ads and then have the website take all of that investment away. So let’s dig in. So what are some of the first things to consider when designing a high-end website?

What are some ways to make a website instantly feel more upscale? Yeah. And just to say, it’s so true. I think of it as 2 things, right? There’s like, there are 2 buckets. There’s the driving the traffic, getting eyeballs, and then there’s what happens when they arrive there. And if one of those things is not in place, you can have a beautiful website, it’s very high end, but no one’s seeing it, that’s not going to work.

And then the other way around that you just described clearly, you know, we always say you like snow blow money out the window, basically. Yeah. Put it in a wood chipper. Yeah, put it in the wood chipper. Whatever, use whatever constructiony metaphor you want to use. So there are some levers that we can recommend and we use that we, we do pull sometimes when we’re looking to make something feel more high-end. In general, when we want something to feel more luxurious, we want to think of restraint and ease.

These are things that we would associate with luxury, right? So getting into like the nitty-gritty of it, just to like bang out a few different things, we can look at number one. Timeless fonts. And by

Design Elements: Timeless Fonts & Typography

That, I mean not decorative. There are exceptions to all the rules, right? Like there are many ways to do this. There definitely are exceptions, but if you want the easy way that is kind of like guaranteed to look high-end, then you wanna go with either a high contrast serif, meaning think of like Dior or Vogue or Vanity Fair. You know, it’s that sort of like there’s little feet on it and it’s like skinny in some areas and then fatter in others.

Like these are The kind of fonts that sounds like me that, hey now, good one. No, it doesn’t. Yeah. And then sans serif. So these are your 2 main choices if you want to be safe and go with something that feels luxurious.

So think like Celine, that logo, or like Chanel, or The Row is a thin version. These clean sans serif fonts are literally, we think of timeless in interior design. It applies to fonts also 100%. I can think of some fonts. That just belong in 2018. And you don’t want that. You will, it will go out of style immediately and it makes you look cheap, unfortunately. So I want to touch on that a little bit. And when we were refreshing the Wingnut website, that’s what we did.

We pared back the fonts and, you know, some of the outdated fonts to make it more timeless in, in your words. And there are, I’ve seen marketing influencers on Instagram, TikTok, or whatever who are recommending, here’s this bank of fonts and everything just looks flashy and trendy.

Like it is going to go, it’s like interior design, you can kind of tell when it’s gonna go out of style or dated in that way. And we’ll get to the palette later, but it all has that washed out beige and that, you know what I mean? Where it looks like when, if you’re going that trendy popular direction, you’re just gonna look like every other website that’s picked that template, has picked that font.

And it’s just, it looks like someone who’s trying to look high rent, but maybe they’re missing that editorial quality, you know, that high-end thing. And Editorial and high-end design, generally speaking, is timeless. So it makes sense that you’d want to pick elements on your website that are equal to that. Yeah. That feel classic. Yeah, exactly. And then you’re switching up a bunch of other things over time, you know, on the site, but yeah, totally agreed. So white space

White Space & Minimalist Layouts

Is, so that is another level, literally a lever you can pull. You can go into a website either when it is being designed in concept phase or even after it’s out of development and just real, just crank up the amount of white space between objects, give it that room to breathe. It probably comes from when white space costs money in print, but it still feels like it costs money on the web, even though it literally doesn’t. Like, could you afford this white space? So that is something that’s an easy win. Less clutter. I mean, just anything luxury, there’s always less clutter.

Color Palette: Muted & Limited Choices

As far as color palette goes, which you brought up, you know, Muted and limited color palette. So sometimes we will like, yes, we do visual branding as well, but sometimes we’ll work with clients who have worked previously with a branding agency and they’ll come to us with a color palette that has like 8, 9 colors in it. And generally what we’ll do in those cases is really edit down and choose just a few and possibly go tone on tone. You know, like we don’t need like green and blue.

And black and white, we would wanna go like variations on the blue or variations on the green and just keep it tight with a color palette. And then within that muted, either muted or very rich feeling. It is tough to carry off, not impossible. I can literally think of some good exceptions. And even among like the sort of like luxury brands like Hermès, like bright orange, they did it. It works for them. But that is the exception. It takes a steady hand to use brighter colors in a luxury setting. It just does.

So if you want to take the direction that is a little bit more guaranteed, then go muted, go muted, or like a deep, rich version of a color. Yeah. I think because traditionally marketing and getting in front of people is loud, colors, loud, you want to grab the attention.

But the difference for interior designers or high-end interior designers isn’t that you’re being loud. Here I am is here I am. You’re coming to me because I’m a damn good high-end designer. And when, you know, when you get here, my work my copy is doing the work to engage you in that story and not a whole bunch of, you know, sale, you know, balloon guys, you know, you know, the traditional interior design balloon guy, the blow up balloon guy, whatever that guy is. Right. Yeah, for sure.

So, but an elegant version, you guys make sure it’s elegant. So it is true. I think of it, I always say like, it’s like with something that’s a high-end service like this, it does feel like it’s like a tension between the marketing and the branding, like the brand’s side of things is like spare. And, you know, in this case, right, talking about high-end interior design, like spare and, you know, there’s scarcity and luxury and blah, blah, blah.

And then the marketing side of anything is like the big green or red button. And so we have to find a way to still market these businesses, like find that good middle ground where we’re driving traffic, but keeping that feeling. I wanna get back to the minimalist part because When I look at interior

Balancing Minimal Design with SEO Needs

Designer websites that are more editorial and less is more, and we’re having more white space, the copy might also be brought down a little bit, but copy is super important for search engine optimization, right? When Google’s crawling the information, when people are searching for your services, copy is one of the main things they go through for keywords, et cetera. How do you balance that minimal white space look and keep your copy editorial, but still have that SEO juice to get discovered by clients who don’t know about you yet? Yeah.

SEO Tactics: Accordions & Location Pages

So we use accordions a lot. And so that’s one of the things that we do. So an accordion, meaning, you know, you click on a little plus sign or whatever. Not the instrument. Oh, solo mio. No, not that. Okay. Darla, stay serious. I’m sorry. I’m sorry. It’s you. I can’t help it. It’s so good to see you. I can’t help it. So good to see you. Yes. So accordions and the, you know, you click and it opens up, it drops open, right? So.

To a search engine, the text that is inside an accordion, you might see them on like FAQs or whatever. The text inside an accordion is text on the page in the same way that text is on the page when you arrive. It is the same to Google. So we love to use accordions on, for example, a homepage where we don’t want a ton of text because we want to keep that clean look, but we want word count.

Like we just want some word count and some keywords on that page. So we use accordions. And then the other thing that we do is have dedicated pages for specific search terms when we’re building a site. So sometimes referred to as location pages or service pages, like a different kind of service page. And these are pages that are not linked to from the top navigation. They are quietly linked to from various places on the site.

And their job, these location pages, is to show up in search and then, and act almost as like a homepage, as a landing page. And so they would be optimized for like, you know, interior designer, desirable suburb, you know, like wherever it is that they’re going after. And that keeps the rest of the website feeling really clean and spare because all of that word count is going onto those pages. I love it. That’s brilliant.

Because you’re at first glance when you’re looking at the website, it’s minimal, it’s editorial, but there’s your SEO. Just click on that little accordion. Yeah. Quietly hiding, just like sitting down there. Like, if you want to click on me, you can. And we make sure that that copy is good. You know, like we, for the lookie-loos, for the 30% of people who are not skimmers who want to click on that information, we make sure like that is going to help sell the services when they click on that. Yeah. Yeah.

Because if they’re serious that they want that information, not just for SEO purposes, but they want to know what, you know, what’s going on. They’re going to click on our approach or whatever we put there. So exactly. Can I just throw 2 more

Additional Design Levers: Type Size & Grid

Things in for like, you can throw in 3 more things, smaller fonts. So just like more levers you can pull if you want to try and make something look more high-end in general, smaller type generally tends to look a little bit more high-end. There are Definitely exceptions to this. Big typography is a thing and can be like a very sexy, awesome look. But if you’re like, I don’t know what to do, try it. And then just gridding everything out.

And this just comes down to, this is where you’re like, maybe hire a professional to build your website so that you can have someone who’s trained in graphic design who will make sure that everything is lined up on grids, invisible grids, so that it feels like very organized to the human brain and feels good when we’re looking at it. That feels expensive. That feels more upscale, just automatically. All right. So minimal, minimalist, classic fonts, timeless fonts, of which you’ve recommended a few here.

And I hope you guys are taking notes, but if not, they’ll be in the show notes at wingnutsocial.com for this episode. Okay. So we have the layout. We have a professional website designer, Gloria and Brand, and we’re having our website done. We have the graphic design. We have the minimalist. We have our accordions, not the instrument, but for the website and

Portfolio Strategy & Staging Projects

Everything is looking terrific, but you have a newer interior designer, or maybe even an interior designer who’s been around and the photography, maybe it isn’t high res, maybe some of it’s outdated or they don’t have enough work. How are we showing our portfolios on the website to keep that still looking high end? Yeah. I mean, the first thing we have to say is that we can’t get around the need for good photography. I think you would agree with that, right, Darla? Like it’s, it is totally a thing.

So we tend to work in 3 possible stages with a newer designer, so Stage 1 is we need one good project. It could be the, your own home that you designed and got professionally photographed, whatever it is. One good project.

We spread it throughout the entire site with no project section. Stage 2, one project page, just image, image, image, image. We have a way of doing that. And then stage 3 is when we’re able to break it down. And the way that we do it is we build the full thing from the beginning with broken down projects and that it’s just ready. For the designer who is just progressing through those stages. But we have designers in all 3 stages regularly as we’re working through it. Have you ever consulted with an interior designer for their website and rejected some of their imagery for whatever reason?

Photography: What to Avoid (fisheye, bad lighting)

Lovingly. Lovingly. Okay. What are some of the things that even, let’s say it’s even a nice photograph, right? And they love it. It’s going to go on their website. I don’t, tell me if this is a little too tricky, but what are some things that you would look for in that photography to not use if you wanna keep your website high-end? Yeah. fisheye lens, like accidentally hiring a real estate photographer who’s gonna use a fisheye lens. That’s a big one. What about lighting? -huh. Oh, darla. Yeah.

You can’t really Photoshop your way out of bad lighting. You really can’t. Like you can brighten it up. It tends to look very like blown out once you do that. So bad lighting, which usually comes with not professionally photographed, but sometimes there are professionally photographed images that do have bad lighting. It’s too yellow or whatever. Like sometimes that can be corrected. Really, you just, you need good lighting on the original photograph not to like take too hard of a line on this.

There have been times that we’ve brightened.

A thing that you can fix is like the alignment of it or the, the angle. So there are definitely times that we’ll get photographs from a photographer and You know, you need to pick basically a vertical line and have that be straight, the correct vertical line. And sometimes we have to just like nudge them to make sure that they’re facing the correct way because that, that’s another one of those things where like the human brain, we look at it and we’re like, ah, you know, it just hurts viscerally.

There’s something about it that you’re like, ugh. You know what I found, Nicole, and tell me if this is still the case, is that higher-end interior designers, when they have their photography, when they have their designs professionally shot, there are no lights on. The photographer has made the research, has done the research to, you know, when the light’s coming through this room. If you look in Architectural Digest or you look in these shelter magazines, there’s no lighting.

There’s, you know, the overhead lights aren’t on it and that makes it look more editorial, more high-end. Absolutely. So we really are just saying get professional photography. We are lovingly saying, and we say this knowing that it is, it’s an expense. I mean, it is, it’s an investment to get. So like nobody’s taking it lightly that to go get professional photography. But yes, absolutely. When we see a bunch of lights on in a photograph, that is one of the signs that the real estate. Yeah. Like the, oh, always.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That hasn’t been considered. So. Yeah. So what do you see anything new coming up as far as websites are concerned with a design website that still applies on making high-end that you see might stick around to be timeless, or are we just dodging trends?

Trends to Watch: AI and Search Impact

I think the biggest thing to consider at this point that is like changing quickly, like God knows we can’t get through any conversation without bringing up AI. So here we go. So the thing is, No one reads an entire website. No human reads an entire website, and we’ve always known that, right? And even the ones who are not skimmers, they’re not gonna read every page, but you know who does read every page? Robots. So robots, what we’re finding, robots, the distant future.

What we’re finding is when it comes to, and this applies to both things, it could be that someone is asking ChatGPT or you know, Gemini or whatever for a recommendation for an interior designer, which they are doing, definitely, they are definitely doing it. AI is reading, quote, every single word on the website. So the beauty of this is that your value proposition, your UVP, you can, whatever you write anywhere on the site, it’s picking that up.

So it’s making more specific recommendations than a traditional Google search would. And that’s awesome. And now it’s also happening in AI overview. So right on the search engine result page, it’s happening. As well. There was a time pretty damn recently as of now where, you know, if you were like, how old is George Clooney? Like it would give you that answer. But for services, it would just give you a traditional search result page. Not anymore. Now there’s an AI overview right on top.

Like, hey, you asked for this. Here’s what we’re recommending. It’s like the new referral. It’s actually impacted SEO for search engine results a lot in a lot of our Wingnut clients because And I’ll backtrack a bit because even on social, the way you write your captions, you bake in that SEO keywords in there. It’s scraping your social and providing answers on Meta. If you go on ChatGPT, our clients are getting found by ChatGPT. We’ve received clients who are now Wingnut clients who found us on ChatGPT by that.

So that is another thing to consider.

And this is not a trend. This is not a trend for 2025. This is it. And it’s just gonna get more involved and more reliable. I foresee ChatGPT, I mean, it is a search engine, but not a browser per se, right? Like Google or, but I foresee them being the browser and the search engine, even with Gemini coming. Google’s scared. Oh yeah. It’s a summary of the internet basically. And, but like put through filters and, and sort of like thought through, right?

So yeah, I mean, I find it really from a search perspective, exciting that we can get that sort of like granular recommendation from AI that before it was just like, here are your top X number of results and it wasn’t specific.

It was, and we still have that. We’re still optimizing for that. Like that’s, that is not going away. It’s still the vast majority of search Google. But yeah, no, this is just gonna keep getting bigger, but it’s exciting for copywriting because you’ll know that whatever you’re saying is going to, it’s being heard. That’s what I was going to say, but that just all goes back to again, having a well-designed website for when people are finding on ChatGPT to go to and for it to impact them and resonate with them.

And when they want to hire a high-end interior designer, their high-end clients, but also how important that SEO is on the website, the copy. It’s just that much more important to make sure that you’re writing for, in a way for you, like you said, your value proposition, who you serve, what you do, what those keywords are, the area that you serve, all of that stuff is still, it’s not ‘Cause ChatGPT has to pull it from somewhere, right? They’re not our overlords yet. Yeah. Yeah.

You need to say family, if you’re modern, you need to, you know, like it before it, this is how it’s evolved, right? Like before, I know for us, when it came to descriptions for style, we would always like kind of take it easy on that because the images say it all, right?

Like this is their, that’s, we’re gonna talk about other aspects of the messaging in the copy, but now it feels more important to describe if there is an aesthetic, if which is not always the case. If there is a specific aesthetic, we want to make sure that we are getting that in a few places at least so we can communicate it to the bots that are scraping the site. Yeah, super, super important. Okay. You have

DIY Website Pitfalls (navigation, low contrast)

A lot of interior designers out there who are newer, who maybe want to take their stab on Wix or they have a template and they want to design their websites themselves. And maybe they have the eye and they can do that. Or they think, you know, this is going to look luxurious or this is really going to attract my ideal client. What are some mistakes that you’ve seen DIYers make when it comes to that, that think they have to have the best intentions, but the end result is literally not what they want? Yeah.

So this goes for custom websites, DIYers. There are some things that feel like they are luxury that can be harmful to either user experience or search engine optimization or whatever it is. So some examples would be the old enter here page. Remember that old gem from like 2012?

It was like, welcome to the dungeon masters, whatever, enter here. So literally we had a client just last week who was showing us an example of a site that they like and it had that. And they were like, you know, it feels like it’s sort of like special and like a gated situation. And I hear what they’re saying, but the reality is a couple of things. One, you don’t want to place a click between your user and the thing they want to get to, which is Yes. Photos of your work, et cetera. And so that’s just bad news.

And 2, that is your homepage. That splash page, that’s the old term, is your homepage. So you’re basically saying, hey Google, we have a homepage that has literally 2 words of content and nothing else.

And that is not cool. Yeah. You don’t wanna add steps. You don’t wanna make it hard for someone to see what is actually like, oh gosh, I gotta go through this gate and then I gotta go through TSA and then, then what? You know? Right, right, right. It’s like that, but for websites. Yeah. So that I would not advise that you do. And then weird or hard to find navigation. You know, a website is not an art project. It is a commercial endeavor. So confusion is not luxurious.

You know, you wanna make sure that it’s easy to find the links on the top. I mean, I’ve seen a lot of wild things out in the— we’ve been doing this for 14 years, so we’ve seen a lot of different examples of what can happen, and it shouldn’t be hard to get around the site. It just shouldn’t. And also low contrast text. It can look very like, I get it.

It looks really lovely when it’s sort of like a little bit more muted, the color of the text, but you will literally not pass ADA compliance, Americans with Disabilities Act, if your text is too low contrast against the background and you don’t want that. Yeah, I can’t see those. Look at my glasses here and they’re, they’re getting thicker as I get older. Same. And if there’s a website and there’s, you know, I can barely kind of read it and I’m out. I can’t, I, it’s one of my things. I just can’t do it. Right.

And you’re not like, oh, that felt so luxurious. No, no. I’m like, I feel lesser than by— No. Yeah, it’s sad. It’s sad. It’s a sad situation for everyone involved.

And then finally, just images to state the obvious, like images that are so high

Media & Performance: Video Heroes & Image Optimization

Res that they slow the page down. It can be tempting to put like really, you know, the image that your photographer gave you, just load it to the website. Do not do that. It will, you know, if something takes 7 seconds to load, search engines are going to notice, number one, and people will leave. So it is important. This is something that we really focus on when we’re building a site, but it is important to find that middle ground where it’s very crystal clear, but it’s loading quickly. I have a question for you.

What about websites that have the hero image but have a video as the hero image? Is that outdated? Can that be high-end? You know? Yeah, no, absolutely. That can. I would say that can be high-end. And as long as that video is hosted somewhere else and then it’s being like loaded from there, it shouldn’t slow the page down too much. But yeah, no, that can be beautiful. It’s just about the quality of the video. Sometimes we will use some of those on project pages as like a supplement to the project page.

It just becomes like a moving image. And we do find that pages that have even the most simple moving version of a project image tend to rank better because they just do. There’s dwell time that’s longer. You know, people stay longer because of the video and whatever other reasons. So yes. And when it comes to doing that beautiful high-res image from your photography, that doesn’t mean you can’t use the image. It just means you have to export it for web and have it still look gorgeous, but have the data behind it.

Right. If I’m saying this wrong, tell me. Yeah. Not slow. The page, but to the human naked carbon-based life form eye, it’s still going to be gorgeous. You just have to do it right. Yes. Carbon-based life forms love gorgeous images. They do. Yeah. But no, you’re 100% correct. Yes. Use your big, beautiful image, but yes, it needs to be like optimized basically. And by optimized, that means a few things.

Yeah. So shrinking down the size so it’s more appropriate for web, renaming the image, alt tag to describe it, all that stuff, blah, blah, blah, jargon. Oh, I love that copy. Blah, blah, blah, jargon. I wonder if I searched on ChatGPT for that, what I would get.

Rapid-Fire: What Up Wingnut

Yeah. If you just pop that in there. All right. Nicole Heymer, AKA Bad Bitch. I need to ask you, are you ready for the What Up Wingnut round? I’m so ready. All right. We’ve been through this a couple times, so I have a couple new questions for you. Since you’ve done the original What Up Wingnut round questions, here’s one for you. Would you rather fight 100 babies or Mike Tyson? Thank you for asking. I’ve always wanted someone to ask me that.

So I feel like I should say Mike Tyson because who wants to admit that they’re willing to like beat up babies? But my real answer, if I’m being honest, is 100 babies. Yeah. I think your odds would be better for sure.

Yeah. I don’t want this to happen. Yeah. Well, you know, it’s hypothetical. Yes. Thank you for asking. You’re stuck on a deserted island, but you can have your one favorite food. What’s it gonna be? Eggs. You know what? I think you have answered that before, and I will say you’re nothing if not consistent. Oh my God. I remember one time saying like a protein bar or something like that because I was being like very practical. But yeah, I eggs are my favorite food. So I guess that makes sense that I said it before.

And I just, I feel like whatever I ate on the island, I could put an egg on top. Authenticity. You are the real deal. I really love eggs. Please recommend a book that’s impacted you. So I was thinking about this and the book that came to mind, it’s not a business book and it’s just something I read recently. It was recommended by Kate O’Hara. The iconic Kate O’Hara, friend and client Kate O’Hara of O’Hara Interiors. So it’s called Save the Cat Writes a Novel.

It’s the structure Save the Cat, which is basically like, it’s like a framework that apparently underpins pretty much any famous— originally it was for screenplays and then they did a novel version. And I am not at the moment writing a novel, but what a fascinating, thought-provoking read to read all the different beats that happen. And you read it and you’re like, oh my God, that is Every beat of that was in The Hunger Games or, you know. I remember hearing about that.

It really is just kind of a framework on writing a novel or writing a play or, right? Yes. Yeah.

Nicole Heymer, you’re lovely as usual. I miss you, my friend. We need to start speaking again and that’s on me. That’s on me. Yeah. We speak occasionally, but yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I know I’ve been, I’ve been a hermit. Please tell the audience where they can go to find out more about you and about Glory and Brand and we will call it a day. Great.

Where to Find Nicole & Closing Remarks

They can go to gloryandbrand.com and they can book a complimentary introductory chat there to talk through the services that we offer and see if it would be a good fit for them. Amazing. Thank you so much, my friend. All right. Thank you. All right. All right. So as I mentioned, Nicole and I, we go back, right? So we had fun. She’s a really good friend of mine and she has the best sense of humor, but she is serious And so am I, when it comes to helping you grow your interior design business. She is the real deal.

She knows what she is doing. And we at Wingnut Social refer our clients over to Glorian Brand all the time and vice versa. And it’s a lovely synergy and a loving relationship.

And I think that if you head on over to Glorian Brand, or if you head on over to wingnutsocial.com, you can see why.

Outro: CTA & Final Promo

All right. That’s it for this episode. Remember to check us out on our YouTube channel, Designed by Wingnut Social, where you can see us in real life and our guests in real life and their work in real life and all of the beautiful production that goes into that high-end podcast. Oh, and that’s designed by Wingnut Social. Head on over to wingnutsocial.com. If you want to delegate your social media digital marketing, you don’t have time to do it, you want to attract those high-end clientele, wingnutsocial.com.

And remember, until next time, to get out there, get uncomfortable, and be great. Thanks for joining us today. Be sure to tune in next week for more business and marketing info and insightful interviews with industry experts and design superstars.

Can’t wait? Then head on over to wingnutsocial.com for more great content to help you get your business to the next level.

Post-Show Banter

Darla, literally, because when that meeting got scheduled for [1:30], I was like, well, that’s probably too close. I should probably reschedule with Darla. And then you emailed and were like, blah, blah, blah. And I was like, oh, it feels like too late cuz she emailed me about it. So, and that was literally me just being like, I’m nervous. Oh, Dr Pepper, the best soda prescribed by the doc. This is medicinal. That is not the first time that you’ve said that, and it is a good one.